Curse

theblackmage · Oct 22, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohnzh

/NOTSIGNED

Please don't take away other peoples fun just because you think it's too hard or you don't have the time. And just because you could never see how having it as character-based rather than account-based is fun doesn't mean that people don't feel that way. It just means that you don't.

Which part is "peoples fun" that we want to "take away"? HM SS/LB farm? HM snowman lair over and over? HM seige farming? Oh, that one might be fun, if you look past how easy it is to get a team that sucks (No sarcasm, I see how it can be fun). Chest running? Ok, in harder areas, sure, but who chest runs in elite-ish areas for treasure hunter points? (as opposed to doing it for loot)

Anyhow, if you find it fun to grind the titles that the OP is proposing change to, then you will find them fun to do with or without the prospect of upping titles, shouldn't you?

/signed, but only if the story-based titles are only unlocked for account-wide after clearing the respective campaign/Xpac

wu is me · Oct 22, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Can you complete the game or all aspects without rank10 reputation on all races? Yes!

Can you complete the game or all aspects without max rank LB or SS? Yes!

Can you complete the gaame or all aspects without max rank luxon or Kurzick? Yes!

Can you complete the game or all aspects without having your pve only skills maxed? Yes!

Can you complete the game or all aspects without elite armor or fow armor? Yes!

Can you complete the game or all aspects without having 100% exploration? Yes!

Can you complete the game or all aspects without having all elites or all normal skills? Yes!

That determines whether something is critical or just a case of "I want it"!

erm... not if u actually consider maxing titles to be part of finishing the game???
Is finishing the game really the ONLY goal people have in mind?
And PLEASE don't talk about "need" in a sentence relating to a game. EVERYTHING in a game is meant to be about what people WANT.
... and please don't say this is about making things easier, cos its not.
Its about changing the way to achieve them..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

No in the end is what Anet thinks is best as a whole and I also think like they think right now that it is NOT account based for titles and you should have to do each one by each individual character on their own. If I win a bowling tournament should everyone in my household get a trophy? See how rediculous your ideas are?

LOL at the analogy, how is your family getting a trophy, for you killing a mob analogous to YOU killing a mob and YOu gaining recognition for it?

Red Sonya · Oct 22, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Everyone in my family is part of my blood are they not? Welp that's how the analogy works. Blood is blood and by yalls standards all blood of your characters should get the same as one character which I do not agree with and neither does Anet thank goodness.

arcanemacabre · Oct 22, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Everyone in my family is part of my blood are they not? Welp that's how the analogy works. Blood is blood and by yalls standards all blood of your characters should get the same as one character which I do not agree with and neither does Anet thank goodness.

Actually, Red Sonya, they do agree.

PvP titles.

Kurzick/Luxon Faction and titles (with linked skills).

Gamer titles.

All of these are account-based.

The problem is, they have some arbitrary reasoning behind making some titles account-wide, and other titles only character based. It's obviously not storyline-based, as Kurzick and Luxon titles are, and they aren't character based. It's obviously not for the titles based on skills, since, again, Kurzick/Luxon titles have skills, and Cartography/Vanq/Protector/etc don't.

So where is the line, and why is that arbitrary line there? I'd really, truly, and honestly like to know.

Red Sonya · Oct 22, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Quote:
If I win a bowling tournament should everyone in my household get a trophy? See how rediculous your ideas are?

The tournament is a show of skill, grind titles just show that you repeated the same thing multiple times. So your analogy doesn't work.

Sorry, but, there are many titles that have a show of SKILL. Gladiator titles, Survivor Titles just to name two. So, my analogy works quite well here. Many of the titles you get you have to fight mobs to get and that takes SKILL to fight mobs so yeah my analogy works quite well here you just don't know what you're talking about is all. But, I'll just leave it that it's working as intended and these types of pages have been up time and time again and Anet hasn't changed them an most likely won't. All titles should and will be gained individually as they are now and I'm glad. As someone else said a level 4 whatever shouldn't have a title a level 20 what other ever got. Besides it will give you something to do for many YEARS to come by having to get all these titles individually and I'm sure only the most dedicated with do that and that is why it should remain the same so they will stand out more amongst the whinning crowd that just whined about it instead of doing it.

Red Sonya · Oct 22, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Actually, Red Sonya, they do agree.

PvP titles.

Kurzick/Luxon Faction and titles (with linked skills).

Gamer titles.

All of these are account-based.

The problem is, they have some arbitrary reasoning behind making some titles account-wide, and other titles only character based. It's obviously not storyline-based, as Kurzick and Luxon titles are, and they aren't character based. It's obviously not for the titles based on skills, since, again, Kurzick/Luxon titles have skills, and Cartography/Vanq/Protector/etc don't.

So where is the line, and why is that arbitrary line there? I'd really, truly, and honestly like to know.

PVP titles do not fall into the same catagory as PVE titles and special event titles like Gamer also do not fall into PVE or PVP titles. You're bringing up apples and oranges now. No one is going to argue what is already account based. The main titles are PVE titles and they or 99.9% of them are not account based.

arcanemacabre · Oct 22, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

PVP titles do not fall into the same catagory as PVE titles and special event titles like Gamer also do not fall into PVE or PVP titles. You're bringing up apples and oranges now. No one is going to argue what is already account based. The main titles are PVE titles and they or 99.9% of them are not account based.

Explain Kurzick/Luxon titles and the PvE only linked skills.

Also, explain why the gamer titles, which have a PvE only effect (chance to not break lockpicks), are account based.

Please. I'm waiting.

bilateralrope · Oct 22, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Sorry, but, there are many titles that have a show of SKILL. Gladiator titles, Survivor Titles just to name two.

A PvP title, and a title I'm not asking to be changed.

Quote:

So, my analogy works quite well here. Many of the titles you get you have to fight mobs to get and that takes SKILL to fight mobs

Yes, it may take some skill. But after you have done it a few times without trouble, another repeat doesn't require any extra skill.

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All titles should and will be gained individually as they are now and I'm glad.

Why are character based grind titles a good thing ?

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As someone else said a level 4 whatever shouldn't have a title a level 20 what other ever got.

You will note that when asked why this was a bad thing, they didn't respond. So will you tell us why this is a bad thing ?
Especially since the Factions PvE only skills already allow it.

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Besides it will give you something to do for many YEARS to come

Years of repeating the same task over and over ?
How many people would instead get bored and go play another game ?

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by having to get all these titles individually and I'm sure only the most dedicated with do that and that is why it should remain the same so they will stand out more amongst the whinning crowd that just whined about it instead of doing it.

Stand out ?
When was the last time anyone actually stood out for having a title ?

BlackSephir · Oct 22, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Explain Kurzick/Luxon titles and the PvE only linked skills.

Also, explain why the gamer titles, which have a PvE only effect (chance to not break lockpicks), are account based.

Please. I'm waiting.

While at it, I'll gladly hear why Lucky, title used in pve, is acc based.
Go go go

freekedoutfish · Oct 22, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I hate to say it, but that rationale can be given for every aspect of the game, freeked. If warriors were only able to access AR 70 armor, but with excessive grind finally able to get AR 80 (except in PvP), that would be acceptable to you Same with weapons. Same with skills\attributes. Is there any limit to it in your mind? If so, where, and why?

You really dont seem to understand what im trying to say and your twisting it!

Im saying that at this moment, nothing ingame which requires grind is essential and there for your not forced into doing it.

How-ever if there was an essential thing (armor, weapons, skills, ranks) ingame which required grind to achieve them. And you couldnt progress ingame or complete the game without them... then yes, I would agree whole-heartedly with this thread.

But nothing ingame which require grind (excessive or not) is critical to anything. People only want the end-results out of want and not need.

Which is fine and I respect that, because I am the same. Im currently working to max all the reputation ranks. Not because I need to but because 1) I want to and 2) I havent alot else to do.

I dont enjoy doing the same quest or dungeons or bounty hunting over and over again, but im realistic in knowing I chose to do it. I could very well go play another character instead or farm gold for destroyer gloves instead.

As for the consiquences of doing making all "grind-based" titles account based...

1) That is a very vague title and request.

Who are you or I to dictate what title requires grind and which doesnt! Its all subjective (as mentioned by others). You could argue that all titles require grind and all should be account based. But how would it make sense to have protector or gaurdian be account based?

Something would need to create a clear-cut definition of what grind is and how it relates to titles, and then have every member of the community agree along with Anet.

But that wont happen, because in retrospect everything in GWs requires grind to one-degree or another. So why should titles be the focus on attention? They have no real baring on anything and dont effect anything in a critical way.

2) There are going to be players who have achieved alot of these titles on multiple characters and worked their ass off for it. Why should those titles then be made account based because a select few cant be bothered or put some importance on that title which doesnt exist?

Isnt that unfair on those players who worked for it?

3) For example, lets say you made the guardian title account based because by your definition it requires repeating the same missions more then once but in HM.

Can you imagine the impact of having a level10 character running around low-level areas with "Legendary Gaurdian". Is that a true reflection of that characters ability? No!

They might never have played that profession before and have NO clue what their doing, but because they have LG displayed it gives the impression to players that their experienced.

The same arguement goes for making any titles account based. If that title reflects a certain level of ability and you allow a new character (someone who hasnt earned it) to display it, it gives the illusion they have experience in that area.

4) It gives an unfair advantage in GWEN over new players!

Why should a new player be able to enter GWEN and right away have rank10 drawf? That gives them a staggering advantage over anyone who is only just starting GWEN for the first time.

The same goes for Norn, Asuran and Vanguard (especially Vanguard)!

5) You could argue the same for LB and SS.

If a person creates a new character and they already have max ranks in NF on LB and SS, they will completely bypass the quests to earn those points. That is basically cheating! They will also enter the ROT or be able to fight Abaddons minions with a huge advantage over anyone who is new.

IMO you can only make titles account based that wont give an unfair advantage in those respects. Wisdom and treasure hunting are the only ones that fall into that catergory because they only effect your lucky % and that doesnt effect you ability to play.

BlackSephir · Oct 22, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Benefits

For Elonian characters, progress in the Sunspear Rank title track is required to complete:

* The Nightfall attribute quests:
o Rising in the Ranks: Sunspear Master Sergeant (requires Sunspear rank 2)
o Rising in the Ranks: First Spear (requires rank 4)
* The following primary quests:
o The Honorable General (requires rank 4 or character level 12)
o The Time is Nigh (requires rank 5 or character level 17)
o And a Hero Shall Lead Them (requires rank 7)

wu is me · Oct 22, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Im saying that at this moment, nothing ingame which requires grind is essential and there for your not forced into doing it.

How-ever if there was an essential thing (armor, weapons, skills, ranks) ingame which required grind to achieve them. And you couldnt progress ingame or complete the game without them... then yes, I would agree whole-heartedly with this thread.

But nothing ingame which require grind (excessive or not) is critical to anything. People only want the end-results out of want and not need.

Which is fine and I respect that, because I am the same. Im currently working to max all the reputation ranks. Not because I need to but because 1) I want to and 2) I havent alot else to do.

I dont enjoy doing the same quest or dungeons or bounty hunting over and over again, but im realistic in knowing I chose to do it. I could very well go play another character instead or farm gold for destroyer gloves instead.

As for the consiquences of doing making all "grind-based" titles account based...

LOOOL take a look at your argument no.4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

4) It gives an unfair advantage in GWEN over new players!

Why should a new player be able to enter GWEN and right away have rank10 drawf? That gives them a staggering advantage over anyone who is only just starting GWEN for the first time.

The same goes for Norn, Asuran and Vanguard (especially Vanguard)!

See the flaw? How can something give an unfair advantage when its not... "necessary"???

Also LOOOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

1) That is a very vague title and request.

[b]Who are you or I to dictate what title requires grind and which doesnt![b\] Its all subjective (as mentioned by others). You could argue that all titles require grind and all should be account based. But how would it make sense to have protector or gaurdian be account based?

Something would need to create a clear-cut definition of what grind is and how it relates to titles..

But yet you argue abt whats necessary like it was your god given right to say what is and isn't.."necessary"? Arg the hipicrasy!!!
What exactly is "necessary" in a game?? Its ALL about what people want. Of course you can't go round giving titles willynilly to people, but this is just a proposed change to the acquisition of titles.
Right now the titles reward a playstyle that LIMITs the strategic diversity in gameplay ( and PLEASE dont say a title isn't a reward -___-).
The purpose of acct based titles is to ENCOURAGE strategic diversity (creation of more pve characters).

And wtf????

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

3) For example, lets say you made the guardian title account based because by your definition it requires repeating the same missions more then once but in HM.

Can you imagine the impact of having a level10 character running around low-level areas with "Legendary Gaurdian". Is that a true reflection of that characters ability? No!

They might never have played that profession before and have NO clue what their doing, but because they have LG displayed it gives the impression to players that their experienced.

The same argument goes for making any titles account based. If that title reflects a certain level of ability and you allow a new character (someone who hasnt earned it) to display it, it gives the illusion they have experience in that area.

For one thing Legendary Guardian was not one of the titles proposed to be made account based ( and appropriately too, because your argument 2 actually makes sense =P,"Grind based titles"* are easy to merge from characters to account, Legendary Guardian is not.).
And seriously... if completing all the hard mode missions isn't enough to convince you of experience, you obviously don't have to accept that s/he's expierienced... YOU dont "NEED" to recognise their experience nobody is "FORCING" you to party with them.. lol??

as for 2....

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

2) There are going to be players who have achieved alot of these titles on multiple characters and worked their ass off for it. Why should those titles then be made account based because a select few cant be bothered or put some importance on that title which doesnt exist?

Isnt that unfair on those players who worked for it?

HENCE the DEFINITIONS for the titles to be made account based...as i said before
Grind based titles= easy(ier) to merge from character to account
trying to merge anything else = very messy
And besides... didn't someone mention the titles weren't "necessary", who cares those hard working people will deal with it right???

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

5) You could argue the same for LB and SS.

If a person creates a new character and they already have max ranks in NF on LB and SS, they will completely bypass the quests to earn those points. That is basically cheating! They will also enter the ROT or be able to fight Abaddons minions with a huge advantage over anyone who is new.

Like i said before... is it not just about.. how should i say it, "want"?
who cares its not needed anyway(according to your previous arguments), and has no impact on the game blah blah blah....
HIPOCRACY!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

IMO you can only make titles account based that wont give an unfair advantage in those respects. Wisdom and treasure hunting are the only ones that fall into that category because they only effect your lucky % and that doesnt effect you ability to play.

well at least we can agree on something ^^

*edit: for the purposes of this post, "grind based title" will be defined as any title which may be progressed completion of "small" indistinct tasks, where "small" = approx 5 mins, although open to interpretation...

freekedoutfish · Oct 22, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

But yet you argue abt whats necessary like it was your god given right to say what is and isn't.."necessary"? Arg the hipicrasy!!!
What exactly is "necessary" in a game?? Its ALL about what people want. Of course you can't go round giving titles willynilly to people, but this is just a proposed change to the acquisition of titles.

There is a difference between something giving you an advantage, and whether that advantage is critical to completing the game or any of its aspects.

Nothing which requires grind is critical, as ive said. But they do admittadly give you an edge and I cant deny that.

That is why I made arguement number 4 and 5! Someone entering GWEN with full reputation titles (due to them being account based) without having played any aspects of GWEN will have an advantage over a new player.

But its not critial to enter GWEN with all reputation titles at 10! Thats the distinction!

I accept the guardian example I made was extreme and unrealistic, but it made the point I was trying to make. This is why IMO you cant make titles account based that give these advantages that I talk about.

We cant have people making new characters and walking into GWEN with full reputation ranks.

We cant have people making new characters and walking into NightFall with full LB or SS ranks.

I hate to say this, but I can now actually appreciate why the Luxon and Kuzack titles are character based (i think it is anyway)! Something I previously didnt agree with because they had a really bit max levels.

Red Sonya · Oct 22, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

I just get the last laugh because it's never going to be change nor should. Once again in explanation of those that are ALREADY ACCOUNT BASED I have no need to explain the titles that are already account based. My comments are on those that are not and should not ever be account based and should be preform individually by every single character you play.

Remember it is YOU who choses to play more than ONE character, thus it is YOU who must bear/bare the burden of having to grind for those titles for as many characters as YOU CHOOSE to play. The game is designed well for ONE character and the grind is minimal for ONE character. When you break out of the design and attempt to play more than ONE an/or play all 10 or any number from 2 to 10 then YOU must play by the same rules as the ONE.

Nemo the Capitalist · Oct 22, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

/signed

we all know anet wont allow that tho its their server their RULES

if u arent happy go to silkroad ill meet u there

bilateralrope · Oct 22, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

As for the consiquences of doing making all "grind-based" titles account based...

1) That is a very vague title and request.

I gave a precise definition in my OP, and I listed the titles I was asking to be changed. If you want to argue about my definition thats fine, but your definition is the vague one because you haven't shown a line between where something is grind and something isn't.

Also this isn't a consequence of the idea, just you trying to make it look vague.

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2) There are going to be players who have achieved alot of these titles on multiple characters and worked their ass off for it.

So exactly how many characters are you talking about when you say multiple ?

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Why should those titles then be made account based because a select few cant be bothered or put some importance on that title which doesnt exist?

Because they make things quicker to achieve for the people running multiple characters.

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Isnt that unfair on those players who worked for it?

How is it unfair ?

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3) For example, lets say you made the guardian title account based because by your definition it requires repeating the same missions more then once but in HM.

The definition I used was repeating identical content. Hard mode changes the mission content. Therefore it isn't a grind title.

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Can you imagine the impact of having a level10 character running around low-level areas with "Legendary Gaurdian". Is that a true reflection of that characters ability? No!

But it is a reflection of the players ability.

Quote:

They might never have played that profession before and have NO clue what their doing, but because they have LG displayed it gives the impression to players that their experienced.

Perhaps, but they would at least know the maps. And even if it showed nothing, how is a useless indicator any worse than no indicator like we have now ?

Besides, who actually looks at a PUGs title when inviting them ?
I don't.

Quote:

The same arguement goes for making any titles account based. If that title reflects a certain level of ability and you allow a new character (someone who hasnt earned it) to display it, it gives the illusion they have experience in that area.

Which of the PVE grind titles show more skill than the task titles ?

And again, who actually cares about a PUGs title when you invite them ?

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4) It gives an unfair advantage in GWEN over new players!

An advantage at doing what exactly ?
Getting through the campaign a second time ?

How is this a bad thing ?

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5) You could argue the same for LB and SS.

If a person creates a new character and they already have max ranks in NF on LB and SS, they will completely bypass the quests to earn those points. That is basically cheating! They will also enter the ROT or be able to fight Abaddons minions with a huge advantage over anyone who is new.

So people get an easier time through on their second run. You haven't shown how that is a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I just get the last laugh because it's never going to be change nor should. Once again in explanation of those that are ALREADY ACCOUNT BASED I have no need to explain the titles that are already account based.

The only reason that you wouldn't have to explain why the Unlucky title (which does nothing) is account based while the reputation titles (which have significant effects) are character based is because someone already has explained it. So where is this explanation ?

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My comments are on those that are not and should not ever be account based and should be preform individually by every single character you play.

And your failing to say why you feel this way.

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Remember it is YOU who choses to play more than ONE character, thus it is YOU who must bear/bare the burden of having to grind for those titles for as many characters as YOU CHOOSE to play.

When I created six of my characters the grind to boost skills [/b]wasn't implemented into Guild Wars[/b]. So when I chose to make my characters, there was no way I could of known about the grind.

So how did I chose to repeat the grind, when I couldn't of known about it ?

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The game is designed well for ONE character and the grind is minimal for ONE character.

Then why has ANET provided us with eight character slots ?

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When you break out of the design and attempt to play more than ONE an/or play all 10 or any number from 2 to 10 then YOU must play by the same rules as the ONE.

The following things suggest a game designed for people to play multiple characters:
- 8 character slots, with the ability to purchase more.
- Account based guild system
- Account based friend/ignore list

You will note that most MMO's don't do the last two, yet they have been in Guild Wars since release. Grind titles were added after release. So please explain why these would be here in a game designed for people to stick to one character.

wu is me · Oct 22, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

ZOMG! some ppl are slow -___-

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsonya

Remember it is YOU who choses to play more than ONE character, thus it is YOU who must bear/bare the burden of having to grind for those titles for as many characters as YOU CHOOSE to play. The game is designed well for ONE character and the grind is minimal for ONE character. When you break out of the design and attempt to play more than ONE an/or play all 10 or any number from 2 to 10 then YOU must play by the same rules as the ONE.

MAYBE we were asking for the design to be changed?????

fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

(see last post)

and fish i think you missed the point.. again.
It's a game nothing is "critical". Really the only thing that should be considered critical is that you have fun playing it, yes?
Go to this link... http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10210784
And that clearly shows most ppl perfer playing a diverse set of characters(or would do so if the titles werent the way they are now).
Right now, its more "rewarding"(in terms of titles/armour, per unit of time) to play only one character
I think ( and prolly a lot of other people out there ) that there should not be so much of a trade off between variety and "rewards".
One ways to reduce the disincentive of diverse characters is to implement whats been suggested by Bilateral.

edit: and what's so wrong about entering GWEN with full rep titles... the only thing thats separating a new character from those maxed titles is hours and hours of grind...Hence anybody who grinds will have an "unfair advantage" is that really what you would perfer????

chowmein69 · Oct 22, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

/signed .

Red Sonya · Oct 22, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

MAYBE we were asking for the design to be changed?????

Sorry it won't be.

New Motto: Please do not feed the whinny trolls.

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Then why has ANET provided us with eight character slots ?

As I said ONE to play PVE well with and 7 others to play different PVP characters of different types where grinding is not required.

Also are you REALLY that dense bylateral? Just some of your questions reek of dense. They have been answered by ANET in that NO is the answer in that there will NOT be changes is their answer. So are you so dense as to not RESPECT their answers? Well I guess you are...see my above motto.

bilateralrope · Oct 23, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

As I said ONE to play PVE well with and 7 others to play different PVP characters of different types where grinding is not required.

We have skill and gear templates, so PvP characters can be rerolled in maybe a minute. So why would we need more than one PvP slot ?

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Also are you REALLY that dense bylateral? Just some of your questions reek of dense.

Do you really think that insulting my intelligence will get you anywhere here ?

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They have been answered by ANET in that NO is the answer in that there will NOT be changes is their answer.

Please provide proof of these statements on ANET

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So are you so dense as to not RESPECT their answers? Well I guess you are...see my above motto.

I'll respect ANETs comments on this, once someone provides proof that the statements exist.